Fitness Business University Podcast

SPEAKER_01: What's up, guys?

You're about to listen to a
recording that I did in

partnership with Perform Better,
the wonderful people at Perform

Better.

And I teamed up with Mark Fisher
and Rachel Cosgrove, two of my

buddies that I speak with on the
Perform Better tour.

And they had us answer questions
based around a recent data

report that was put out by a
company called Boutique Fitness

Solutions.

And we talk lead follow-up, we
talk retention, we talk

conversions, all kinds of cool
ideas that that Mark, Rachel,

and I gave based on what the
data was saying.

So a little different flow from
the typical podcast that I put

out, but I think this will be
helpful for you.

So enjoy this uh data report
conversation with myself, Mark

and Rachel.

Enjoy.

SPEAKER_02: Good afternoon,
everyone, and and and welcome to

the Perform Better webinar
series.

We're here today with the four
great business minds.

We got Julian Barnes, who's
gonna lead this.

Uh, Julian is the uh founder of
BFS.

The topic today is the path to
profitable strength studios,

what the data and top coaches
reveal.

Along with Julian on the panel,
we got Mark Fisher from Business

for Unicorns.

We got Vince Gabriel from uh
Gabriel Fitness, and we got

Rachel Cosgrove from Results
Fitness.

Obviously, we got some great
minds in here in the fitness

business industry.

I'm gonna turn it over to Julian
and let these let these four

four business minds take over
from here.

Have a good one, guys.

Thanks, Chris.

Thanks, Chris.

Thanks, Chris.

SPEAKER_04: And uh thanks to all
of you who are listening live

and who may be listening to this
uh on the recording in the

future.

As Chris said, my name is Julian
Barnes, co-founder and CEO of

the BFS Network that is beauty,
fitness, and self-care.

One of the things that we do is
publish annual reports on the

state of the industry.

And we recently released the BFS
Strength Report, which is what

we're gonna talk about today.

I've asked three of my friends,
Mark Fisher, Vince Gabriel, and

Rachel Cosgrove, to join us
today and talk about the path to

profitability for gyms and
studios.

The way this is gonna work is
I'm gonna show a couple of

slides between each question,
show what the data says from our

recent report, and I'm gonna ask
Mark, Vince, and Rachel to opine

and share their insights on
whether they believe the data,

and if so, their recommendations
for how each of you can achieve

the metrics that are shown in
the data.

Just a little context.

First of all, this survey was
conducted in the last 12 months

of gym and studio owners
worldwide, mostly US and Canada,

but there are a few offshore.

They are overwhelmingly
independently owned businesses

that are not financed by private
equity.

So there's no barriers in here,
no Soul Cycle, no Solid Core.

There may be one or two large
groups of uh PE-backed Orange

Theory franchises.

I think there's one or two.

But for the most part, the data
reflects individually owned gyms

and studios.

71% of the respondents have one
location, another 19% have two

or three locations.

So they're just like most of you
who are listening.

They started their own gym,
maybe they opened a second one,

maybe they got friends and
family or an SBA loan, but it's

not, we're not talking about the
big national companies.

So, with that context, let's get
started.

The first question I have for
all of you, and let me share my

screen, is the beginning of the
client journey is of course

number of leads per month, and
our data revealed that

profitable gyms generate more
than 50 leads per month.

So let me say that again.

Profitable gyms generate more
than 50 leads per month, and you

can see the distinction here
between city and suburbs are

pretty close, 29 and 33 percent.

So, Mark, let's start with you.

Is this consistent with your
experience from business for

unicorns?

SPEAKER_03: Generally, I think
so.

I guess if I can ask one
clarifying question, Julian, is

this only profitable gyms or are
these all the gyms that fill

this out?

SPEAKER_04: Only profitable.

All the data question.

Thanks for reminding me.

All the data is only for the
profitable gyms.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, I
think within reason, obviously

the number of leads you need in
a given month is going to be a

function of how many clients you
have.

And and one thing I think at
some point I'll speak to a

little bit, probably your coach
to client ratio, because that is

going to determine the actual
capacity of a given studio.

But within reason, yeah, if you
say like, you know, 50 leads per

month, that's like 12 leads per
week.

That feels like it's it's hard
to grow, I think, if you're

doing less than that, once you
have tipping point of clients.

So, you know, if you have a
six-on-one gym, you're gonna max

out at, you know, probably 120,
150, maybe.

If you have a more large group
class boutique concept,

obviously back in the heyday,
you know, there were orange

theories that at times had over
a thousand clients.

So the amount of lead flow
you're gonna need, again, is

gonna vary.

But I think within reason, yeah,
you know, even like a modest

small group gym, if you are
getting, you know, five leads

per week, even if you're
converting in a very high

percentage, oftentimes it gets
hard to outsell attrition,

certainly once you're
approaching 100, 100 clients.

SPEAKER_04: Excellent.

Thank you.

Rachel, what's you what are your
thoughts about this metric?

SPEAKER_00: Yes, I think it's
definitely on point.

I want to clarify that a lead is
somebody who has raised their

hand and said they're interested
in your business.

So it doesn't necessarily mean
they've walked through the door

and they're sitting down with
you.

They've given you their
information, maybe their email,

maybe their phone number.

And so, you know, I think for a
lot of gym owners, sometimes

they expect, you know, a lead is
somebody who comes walking

through their door magically.

And so there's a process.

And a lead is basically somebody
who has given us their

information, they've raised
their hand and said, hmm, I'm

interested in what you do.

I want to know more.

Doesn't mean they're ready to
sign up, doesn't mean they're

ready to come through your door.

So I think shooting for 50 leads
a month, that's gonna be a good

number for most, you know, small
gyms to be on track to end up

with, you know, 10 to 12 new
members.

So that's, you know, with a
whole nurture campaign in effect

and taking those 50 leads and
eventually getting them through

the door and eventually getting
them to sit down, eventually

converting them, and then making
them your member.

SPEAKER_04: Okay, great.

So then, Vince, we learned from
our research that the most

effective intro offer was
referrals.

Is that consistent with your
experience and what what you

trade what you teach your
clients?

SPEAKER_01: So we definitely
teach our clients to generate

referrals.

I think an intro offer, I don't
know if like the verbiage might

be a little skewed, because in
my experience, an intro offer

could be something, you know,
that you put out on Facebook

that was, you know, two weeks
free or a free trial session or

a consultation or something like
that.

SPEAKER_04: My bad.

Let me rephrase the referrals
was the most effective lead gen

tactic.

The question should be what is
the most successful intro offer?

And so that's what I'm showing
here on the slide.

So my bad for the question.

So these are the various intro
offers, and you can see here,

surprisingly to me, the first
place the first the response

with the most the answer with
the most responses was other,

which means, in my opinion, that
there's no one dominant or

prevailing responsibility.

SPEAKER_01: No, I and I have
some thoughts on that.

I think that probably the reason
is nothing works forever.

And I think that their one intro
offer that could work for a few

months or a few weeks eventually
will kind of run its course, and

then there needs to be a new
intro offer that's created

because people people get things
get saturated, people get used

to things, they see things over
and over again.

And so I I think the thing, the
biggest insight that people can

make from from what I saw here
is that you need multiple intro

offers.

And I think that one of the
things that people get really

confused on is oh, if I have
multiple intro offers, I have to

change my sales process and
change my pricing and change the

way I do it.

And the reality is you the skill
is changing the intro offer,

right?

Whether that's two weeks free, a
free consultation, and it all

goes into the same vacuum.

It all goes into the same place.

So you're not redirecting and
recreating your sales process.

So I think the best piece of
advice here is that people are

gonna need to put different
wrappers on things.

They're gonna need to know, you
know, that a two-week free trial

will work, a free consultation
will work.

It's just not gonna probably
work forever, and you need to

get used to being able to change
that wrapper, but keep your

sales process consistent so it
doesn't mess up your whole

operations internally.

SPEAKER_04: Great points there.

Rachel, as you can see here, the
most effective intro offer price

was$21 to$50.

Is that in line with what you
see across your purview?

SPEAKER_00: This is gonna depend
on what you charge.

So, you know, for us, our least
expensive membership is$125

bi-weekly.

So we our lowest intro offer is
$197, like$197.

We want to get people to
convert.

So offering a$21 to$50 intro
offer is not gonna get as high

of a conversion and it's not
gonna get as qualified as a a

lead as if you do go with a
higher price point.

So I think you do have to, you
know, one, you can give it a

try, the$21 to$50 to see who
shows up.

And if you're really good at
sales, you know, you might be

able to get them converted, but
you might end up with a lot of

people that aren't gonna be
qualified or able to, you know,

convert to become a part of your
gym.

And so it's really you got to
look at, you know, charging

enough that you're gonna get
qualified leads that are gonna

be able to convert and become a
long-term member.

And I want to back up on the
referrals.

I do think it's important that
you have some kind of a trial

offer for those referrals.

I think a lot of people think
referrals just happen and you

know that it's just part of, you
know, people are gonna send me

people, but really getting
systemized with it and figuring

out like a VIP trial offer.

So it's still, you know, an
intro offer that's a VIP offer

that your clients we listen for
people to mention somebody, and

then our, you know, our trainers
know they give them a nice VIP

card that, you know, here's a
VIP intro for your friend who

you mentioned.

And then if they if we can get
their information, we can reach

out.

And that way you have that
referral engine going because it

is going to be one of your most
qualified leads as well.

SPEAKER_04: So, what's the most
effective referral tactic that

you've seen?

SPEAKER_00: Well, like I
mentioned, so listening for your

clients to mention somebody.

So have you know, giving when
your coaches are on the floor,

making sure they're listening,
because they're the ones who are

face to face with the clients.

So if your client mentions, oh,
I was telling my sister all

about this place, and you know,
oh, what's her sister's name?

Her name's Jenny.

Oh, you know, tell me all about
what Jenny does.

Oh, well, Jenny's been training
at this other gym, she's really

not happy.

Well, we would love to invite
Jenny to come join us for a

couple of weeks as a VIP member.

Since you're a member here, um,
we will go ahead and extend her

a VIP.

So we usually do a free two
weeks so they can come in, they

can try it out for free.

We we only give this to VIP
members, you know, we only give

out a few, that's very
exclusive.

It's not just everybody gets
one.

And then, you know, then if you
want to go ahead and give me

Jenny's contact information, I
can reach out.

So someone specific, listening
for that specific person, and

then really making the client
feel special that you're taking

care of the client, right?

Now we're gifting that client
this VIP membership, that then

when they leave the gym that
day, they're gonna call their

sister Jenny and go, hey, guess
what?

You get to come to the gym with
me.

I've been wanting you to come.

I have a two-week pass ready to
go for you.

So let's go.

You know, so that ends up
getting a little more specific

than you know, just like, hey,
we want referrals.

SPEAKER_04: And do in that in
that scenario, do you provide

any type of incentive to your
VIP member?

SPEAKER_00: If you it's funny,
whenever we've like dangled a

carrot for referrals, our
clients don't seem to, it

doesn't seem to motivate them
more.

We actually, you know, they like
recognition.

They let you know, we do put
some extra money on their shake

account.

They we put their name up on a
board, like, you know, as long

as we're recognizing them, yes,
we say thank you.

And then if we do have a big
referrer, we usually

unannounced, we'll get them a
gift that's something you know

that surprises them to say thank
you.

So we've done different like
referral challenges, like, hey,

you were giving away an iPad, or
you know, and like our clients

can afford their iPad.

So they I just feel like they're
kind of like, you don't need to

give me stuff to bring people in
here.

Like, if you guys want me to
bring people in here, so that's

a our own, you know.

I don't know, have you guys had
that experience?

What have you guys seen with
referrals?

Have you tried different
giveaways and had good ex I

mean, I'm curious.

SPEAKER_01: We I'll go, Mark.

We we found stumbled onto
something that really worked

well.

Didn't work very good during
COVID, but we I got some guy

that gave me a business card
once, and the business card was

black and metal, and it was like
heavy, and I like dropped it on

the ground and it like made this
clanking noise.

And I was like, oh my god, this
thing is amazing.

And so what we started to do is
we got cards made for a free

one-month membership.

And every time we signed up a
new member, we gave them the

card.

And that we got the cards made
with these like little numbers

on them.

So it's like 001, 002, and
they're like, and they're like

six or seven bucks a pop.

And basically, we kind of had
this like conversation with

them.

We're like, hey, you know, you
know, we only give these out to

people that are current members,
your number 001.

We're gonna give this to you.

And we we also would ask kind of
leading the question with

instead of saying, you know,
give this to somebody, we say

who who's the first person that
comes to your mind that would

benefit from getting a free
month with us.

And so I think sometimes the
language that you use is is

really important, and that
question prompts them to

actually think about something.

And then sometimes you need to
take it a step further and be

like, oh, well, is it do you
have a spouse?

Do you have a friend?

Do you have a neighbor?

I think one of the things about
referrals is that this concept I

learned from a guy named Dean
Jackson is make it easy for your

customers to refer.

Right.

And so when you make it easy, so
for the first part, easy is I'm

giving them something for free.

So now it's like, like Rachel
said, like you're giving them a

gift.

That's not hard to do, right?

That's a good thing to do.

And you, they, your clients
actually look like a cool, fun,

nice person for giving them a
gift.

And the second thing is there's
like a thing that they have that

they give it to.

So it's the whole concept is
make it easy for your customers

to refer and don't feel like
they're like having to sell your

business.

Almost make them show up like
the hero for the referral.

So the black metal card at the
point of sale, except during

COVID, it didn't work during
COVID.

Um, but the black metal card was
and and it's funny because all

my uh mastermind clients, like I
taught them this, and they all

bought metal cards.

Like every one of my clients, so
they're like, Where do you get

those metal cards?

Where do you get those metal
cards?

And they all bought the metal
cards, and now they they have

there's like a hundred because
they bring them back, so you're

gonna get it, even if it's
expensive, you're gonna get it.

I'll tell you one more, I'll
tell you one more thing we do do

is like if we send it out and
they haven't sent it back in, we

will send them an email say,
Hey, uh, if you didn't find

anyone, uh yes, please bring
your card back.

So a little bit of shaming.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but and I
think you're right, like that at

the start of their membership is
when they're gonna be most

likely to refer.

So, you know, we've seen that
too, is we have scripts in place

so that you know, right away,
because that's when they're

excited, that's when you know
you're brand new, that's when

they're telling all their
friends about you.

So really making it easy at that
point.

SPEAKER_04: So let's let's go a
little further in this because

we know that referrals is the
most popular legion tactic, and

it doesn't require hiring an
agency and spending thousands of

dollars if you have the right
systems in place.

So let's go a step further.

Rachel just mentioned that it's
great to give out that black

card at the beginning for a new
client, but let's flip it to the

person who's your three times a
week for the last three or four

years person.

And that person, everyone in her
life knows she goes to your gym

three times a week for the last
five years.

And she knows that you're
looking for new clients, but

it's not top of mind for her.

What can you do, Mark, or anyone
else, to take the people who

who've been paying you, who've
been committed to you for years,

who are most likely the health
and wellness expert in their

chat group?

Like everyone goes to them for
health and wellness advice.

How can you incentivize that
person to bring her friends to

your clubs?

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I I kind of
think about the the when I think

about referral offers, part of
what I think makes them

impactful is I think in
marketing, you have inbound

approaches and outbound
approaches, right?

So, like, like very briefly,
they're the things that the

prospect does when they want a
gym, right?

And it's gonna be two things.

They're gonna search online,
Google, Google Maps, or a chat

bot, or they're gonna ask a
friend.

So a referral can be useful.

And I often call that that's
like the phishing net, right?

So a phishing net is some sort
of evergreen, always available,

obvious first thing to make it
easy for the client to refer,

right?

That may or may not include an
incentive for the client's

friend.

Usually does.

Maybe it includes an incentive
for the client, but I think to

Rachel's like very good point,
you know, like people like they

can probably afford it.

It's more about just like
acknowledging and giving them a

thank you, maybe, than about
like incentivizing new behavior

because of the action.

On the other hand, we're
thinking about this like

long-term client, right?

Because ideally, we're talking
about the evergreen referral

offer, we're training our
clients on that, right?

We're talking, and you can
decide.

Maybe it's like typically it
might be point of sale, it might

be, you know, every six months
you just do a blast to all

clients who they remember it
exists.

Potentially, you build this in
if you have any sort of goal

review session.

But if we really want to like
shake the lead fruit from the

lead tree, so we have this
typical client that's been

around for three years.

I think when I think about
marketing outbound stuff, I

think of that as like fishing
polls, right?

And there's a number of things
you could do there.

You could run paid ads, you
could do business partnerships,

you could just go talk to people
one-on-one on the street.

But the referrals are
interesting because you have a

referral-inbound approach where
the trunk the clients know what

to say.

If a friend is like, oh, I'm I'm
thinking about a gym.

Do you like that gym?

Oh, yeah, it's this thing.

But the phishing pole version
would be some sort of

time-sensitive offer that is
leveraging some kind of urgency

and or scarcity.

That can look like different
things in different models, but

in general, that might be
something like a bring-ab-buddy

week, right?

Which is like usually not
available all the time.

It might be like for next week
only.

Your friends can come train
unlimited times for free.

Perhaps it is a, you know, the
holiday one.

Vince, I think I heard this one
from you for some sort of like

holiday thing where maybe you do
like, because we do the black

card version, the black card in
our gym, New Jersey.

And usually it's like you have
to claim by the end of December

and you have to start by
whatever, January 19th, right?

So ideally we're driving some
action by something that's not

usually available, which gives
it an element of time

sensitivity.

I think if you have a bigger
gym, again, I might not do this

in a smaller gym, but if you
have a very large class-based

concept and you got a lot of
bandwidth, you could do a more

robust give to get.

So that might be like for the
month of whatever, we're, you

know, we're gonna award points
for reviews and for bringing in

leads and for posting on
Instagram end to end to end.

And then you do a raffle and you
give away like a Yeti cooler or

whatever.

Because if you do the math of
it, that actually can make

sense.

The cost per acquisition can
make it worth your while.

I think the only thing about the
give to get I caution to people

listening, is like I don't
usually like that for smaller

gyms, just because it's like a
lot of work and it'd just be

easier, just like run a big
bring a money once in a while,

do like some sort of
once-in-a-while free month for a

friend thing.

That's that tends to be like how
I think about it.

So I'll pull up there.

But yeah, that's how I think
about how you could drive

somebody that's been a member
for a long time and take action

if the regular appeals have not
proved to have them do

something.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah.

What do you think?

What do you think, Rachel?

SPEAKER_00: I would our biggest
influx of referrals from

longtime members is when we do
we call it S T I P T, something

to invite people to.

So twice a year, drop two sizes,
kickoff, you know, throw a big

event and invite.

We're, you know, we're gonna be
doing this seminar all about how

to drop two sizes in eight
weeks.

Bring your friends, it's free.

And so then clients are like,
hey, I've been telling you about

my gym for the last three years.

This is where I go, come with me
to this seminar on Thursday

night.

And then they bring their
friends.

So that's where we've found the
biggest influx of referrals from

longtime members and also past
members show up, you know, like

if they haven't been in in a
while and they're like, it's

just an easy way for them to
show up, hang out, hear, you

know, the latest updates of what
we're teaching and what we're

doing.

And then, of course, you know,
there's a sales pitch at the end

of the seminar, and uh, we get
everybody signed up, and it

tends to be a big success.

So definitely if you haven't,
you know, done some kind of a

seminar or kickoff or live
event, I think that's one of the

easiest ways to get people to
bring people to you.

SPEAKER_04: And what were those
initials again?

The acronym?

SPEAKER_00: S S-T-I-P-T,
something to invite people to.

SPEAKER_04: Vince, you want to
add something?

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's great,
Rachel.

I always learn something from
you, so thank you.

I I think that uh I'll go with
more of a quick mindset tactic

and then a one tactical thing.

Most people get referrals by
accident.

And I think that's the thing
that kind of people sit and wait

for referrals, and they happen,
and they will happen.

If you do a good job, they will
happen.

But since we all know that
referrals are the best

customers, right?

Like, you know, by far, like
it's like we're all take a

referral over a paid ad client
like any day of the week.

And so recognizing that this is
a very good way to grow your

gym.

Now, how do we strategically
think about how to make this

happen more often?

Right.

That's the mindset shift of how
do we go from accidental, right?

It happened by accident, to
orchestrating the process.

And Mark talked, said some great
things.

Rachel also said some great
things.

I'll share one that was, I
thought, the stupidest idea that

we've ever had.

We had created this thing called
March Madness, and it's based on

the March basketball tournament,
like of all things.

And I had nothing to do with
coming up with this idea.

It was all my staff, and they
were like, we're gonna do

something march madness, and it
was all about an internal

driving challenge.

We have there was zero external
marketing to get people in, and

our customer and our current
clients they got involved.

But what we made is that it was
like based on a point system

thing.

So they got points for certain
things, and then there was

prizes at the end.

And one of the things they got a
ton of points for was sending

referrals, and this was the most
referrals we got in a 30-day

period than we've ever gotten
before.

And it was because people are
competing and they got points

for certain things.

They don't care, like Rachel
said, they don't care if like

you know, give them an iPad or
stuff like that.

But when you gamify something
and they can win and they can

get points for it, and they
didn't even win like cash or

like I think I don't remember
what the prizes were.

But creating these, what is it,
S T I P T, like S T I P T, but

creating these these events,
these very orchestrated systems

within your business on a
regular basis.

And here's the last thing I'll
say if it works, do it again.

Don't not do it again.

If it works, you put it on your
calendar and you rinse and

repeat.

And that's the thing of like
what you're building is a

system.

You're building these systems
and processes inside of your

business so you don't have to
create the new thing every

month.

It's just like if it worked on
Valentine's Day, do it bring a

friend week on Valentine's Day,
and every Valentine's Day, you

do a bring a friend week.

SPEAKER_04: And do it for
Mother's Day and do it for the

holidays and continue until it
stops working.

All right.

So, with all those great ideas,
now you guys, your gyms are

flooded with first-time visits.

We asked in the survey the
average number of first-time

visits per month.

And again, as a reminder, these
are profitable studios divided

by city and suburbs.

Dark blue is city and the peach
is suburbs.

Our data reveal that the studios
and gyms in in cities, about 29%

of them have 11 to 30 first-time
visits per month, and about 31%

in the suburbs.

So let's just call it 30% each.

11 to 30 first-time visits per
month at a profitable gym or

strength studio.

Mark, is this consistent with
your experience?

Number of first-time visits per
month for a profitable gym.

SPEAKER_03: Uh, I think so.

Yeah, I think so.

And again, it's hard because at
the risk of being a broken

record, you have to just keep
zooming out to what is the

coach-de-client ratio, what is
the max capacity for that gym,

how many clients do we have now,
and then how many clients do we

want.

But yeah, within reason, you
know, it it I would also note

the first-time visit for many
strength training gyms, probably

a lot of the gyms that Rachel
and Vince and I work with,

oftentimes that's gonna be some
sort of sales conversation,

right?

It's gonna be a strategy session
or a starting point or a

no-sweat intro, or choose the
euphemism of your choice for

some sort of sales conversation,
which could be after they bought

a maybe low-priced trial, or it
could be we're gonna either sell

a trial or potentially straight
to membership.

Having said that, I think if
there are larger class-based

strength studios, uh, you know,
I think again of like the Orange

Theories of the world,
oftentimes in the boutique class

world, the first visit is a
class.

So rather than even having like
a quick phone call to set up a

proper sit-down sales
conversation, they will often,

not always, but they will often
book a free class or maybe a buy

one, get one free, or a
three-pack is is very common in

the boutique fitness space.

They will then book the class on
their own.

So the first visit is gonna vary
differently.

And of course, again, if you are
trying to go from 80 clients to

90 clients, that's gonna be very
different volume you need than

if you're trying to go from say
600 clients to 700 clients.

SPEAKER_04: Makes a lot of
sense, Rachel.

Are those?

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so we Yeah.

So looking at data, like we were
talking earlier about the 50

leads.

So say you're shooting for that
40 to 50 lead number, we want to

see about half those people show
up in your door.

So if you're not getting half
those people to show up in your

door, then you do want to work
on your phone script, work on

you know, your nurture campaign,
work on why aren't we getting

these people to show up in our
door?

So I think if we're getting 50
leads, people who give us their

name, their phone number, email,
hopefully, then if we can get 25

of those people to show up in
our door, that's gonna be a good

number to shoot for.

SPEAKER_04: Then less
convenient.

SPEAKER_00: And it is a free
strategy session too.

Yeah, same as like Mark said,
it's not they're not joining

right away.

So, you know, these are 25
people who make an appointment

to come in and talk about what
we do.

SPEAKER_04: Okay, and so once
they walk in the door, then the

question becomes what percentage
are those?

Well, this is what you were just
talking about.

So more than 30 profitable gyms
and studios are converting more

than 30% of those leads to show.

And you can see here in the city
it's 46%, in the suburbs, it's

56%.

So as you just said, 25 to 50,
suburbs are doing that at a

higher rate.

Gyms in the suburbs are doing
that at a higher rate.

SPEAKER_00: And we define Yeah,
I'd say 60% is low for a gym of

like a gym like ours.

Like if you have your sales
process in place, you should be

converting.

So of those 25 people that show
up, 60 to 70 percent should

definitely be happening to get
converted to become a member.

SPEAKER_04: So clarification, we
didn't ask another option above

30% in the first survey, but we
have added that in the current

survey.

So it doesn't mean that they're
not doing full the highest, the

highest possible response was
more than 30%.

SPEAKER_03: But next can I ask
just one clear clarification,

Julian?

So this I'm reading this as
conversion rate of leads to

first-time visitors, right?

So this is for top of funnel
leads to who comes into either

first class or uh okay.

Is that I just want to show I'm
reading this properly.

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: So this is like the
50% number I was throwing out.

SPEAKER_01: So it's not a part,
it's just who showed up.

Right.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

SPEAKER_01: There are two I get
what you're saying, Rachel.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we have two
conversions.

We actually think that there are
three conversions that happen.

Right.

My question is what which
conversion rate are you

referring to?

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because you
even want to track like people

that book an appointment and
then people who show up.

Because you might get, you know,
a large percentage booking

appointments, but then if you're
not following up and making sure

they're gonna be there, or if
they're not qualified, which we

want to back up and go, where'd
we get these people from?

You know, then you know they're
not gonna show up in in your

door.

SPEAKER_04: So let me ask a
broader question and then you

guys can run with it.

We think of conversion, or in
this survey, we reported

conversion in two ways.

Conversion number one was lead.

From lead to they walk in the
door, whatever you want to call

it.

From lead to walk in the door is
conversion number one.

Conversion number two, they
walked in the door, they took a

class or they had a consult and
they pulled out their credit

card and made a second purchase.

We say second purchase, not
necessarily a membership.

Somebody may go from the intro
offer to a class pack, not

necessarily a membership.

And let me back up.

We actually didn't ask about
membership.

We use the phrase recurring
payment because we don't really

care if it's a class pack or a
membership.

I think what's important for the
gym owner is the recurring

payment.

And so somebody could come in,
walk in your gym, purchase an

intro offer, the two for 30,
they go through those two

classes, they could come back
and make a second purchase.

Maybe they buy a five-pack or a
10-pack, but it's not recurring.

It's still a second purchase.

Our report said that the
conversion rate from lead to

show is 30% at profitable gems.

The conversion rate from show to
next purchase, whatever that is,

was also 30%.

That's what our data says.

What does your experience say,
Vince?

SPEAKER_01: The original 30% is
accurate from what we see.

They show up to the door for
whatever.

So that is consistent.

Our it the second piece seems
low.

For example, when someone, you
know, most of our guys are doing

a you know a one-on-one
consultation, selling them into

a high-level small group
membership, we're seeing much

higher conversion rates than
30%.

You kind of what Rachel was
saying, 70 to 80 percent is what

we're seeing.

A lot of to a lot of people have
gone from, and this is kind of

an important thing, there was a
while there where everyone was

going to 12-month memberships,
right?

And then there was this process
where everyone was doing a

30-day trial, and it was, and I
did this too, it was

consultation to 30-day trial,
and then after the 30-day trial,

you sell a 12-month membership.

Where the seems to be most
people are going is a

month-to-month, not most people,
but a lot, a month-to-month

membership where they show up to
a consultation and now we're

just selling them direct to a
month-to-month membership.

And that's making conversion
rates go higher because it is

less of a commitment.

It's kind of hard for someone to
commit to a 12-month thing right

off the bat, those conversion
rates were lower.

So uh to answer your question,
30% on point, the next 30% seems

very low from what I'm seeing.

We're seeing closer to 80%
committing to a membership, a

month-to-month membership right
from consult free.

SPEAKER_00: And so are you
paying are you charging for the

initial consult?

SPEAKER_01: No, no, it's a free
consultation.

SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah, us
either.

I was just curious.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah.

So this might be one of the more
important questions we asked

today.

What do you what do you
recommend to your clients that

they do to get that 30%
conversion rate from show from

lead to show?

And to get the 80%, like what
are the specific tactics that

you recommend in their sales
funnel to actually get the first

30 and the second 80 that you
recommend?

Anyone?

How do how do we actually what's
in the sales funnel to get the

conversion rate?

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I I have a
small group mastermind called

the CEO mastermind, and they
show up every quarter, and we

have every ounce of data they
could possibly have, they bring

it to the meeting.

And this is one of the numbers
that's off the most.

And every person that I have
seen that has a garbage

conversion rate from lead to
show, we do what what ruthless

thing I'm about to tell you is
we sh put them on the phone in

the middle of a group, you know,
with their gym with their

colleagues and gym owners.

It's like, you know, getting in
there naked and we have them do

a trial, right?

And we're we're listening to how
they're closing on the phone.

And every time someone with a
low conversion rate is

absolutely awful on the phone.

And I think that we can talk
about, you know, all the

different tactics and text
message reminders and and and

and we can show up like the
hospital and make sure everyone

knows and they get a thousand
texts.

If the conversation is crap,
they're not it's really not

gonna show up.

So that's like I I think we tend
to put the cart before the horse

with lead with lead conversion.

It's not it's not about the
automations and the thing, it's

about the quality of the
conversation that people are

having.

And here's the biggest tip I'll
give it's just it's it's gotta

be about them.

It's it's gotta be about the
person and asking questions and

having a not a script that you
read word for word, but a

process that you follow and you
know what you're gonna ask and

you're gonna listen more than
you talk.

That is really what we see is
the the the improvement of the

conversation is what will drive
the conversion the most

secondary is speed to lead, and
I'll let you guys continue on

that one.

Who wants to talk about speed to
lead?

SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean before
you do.

Let me let me in interject.

Uh last week I was on a flight
to Chicago and I sat next to a

pilot who was 20 years in the
army, and he mentioned that the

army trains their pilots on this
very simple philosophy speed is

life.

That's what the army teaches
their pilots.

Whatever scenario they
encounter, turbulence, takeoff,

they need they're trained to
make a decision immediately.

Speed is life.

So we say speed to lead, and the
army's teaching speed is life.

So, Mark, what is your speed to
life recommendation for gym

owners?

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean,
listen, within reason, you know,

everybody says that maybe
Apocryphall possibly made up

stat that it's something like
it's like 85 times less likely

if you don't call than the first
five minutes.

And of course, every gym owner
in the world is like, but I

don't have time.

And also they opt in at two in
the morning.

So what do I do?

So, you know, it's not a perfect
world, but yeah, within reason,

we want to call people
immediately.

I think this is always a best
practice, but I think two other

points.

First of all, if you're doing
any kind of paid ad, it gets all

the more important because a lot
of times they're literally just

gonna forget, right?

If they're just scrolling
through the phone, a lot of

times people opt in.

A lot of owners get very
frustrated with a lot of digital

ad agencies because they'll say,
Yeah, I'm calling the people,

but they never opted in.

They never heard of us.

Listen, I I think I understand
that that is like a frustrating

thing, but in practice, a lot of
times we just didn't get back to

them fast enough, right?

Now, that's not to say that
that's a bad thing to do,

regardless.

If you have a very hot referred
lead, still good idea, call them

as soon as you can.

But you could make the argument
that particularly the better you

are at marketing and just the
sheer volume of colder leads

you're getting, the more
important is to try to get them

right away.

I think the other thing that is
interesting is this whole, you

know, some people are kind of
reluctant to pick up phones

these days, right?

So like I think that's another
thing, too, that makes this like

a little bit complicated is now
the world I move in, Vince, I

know you move in this world too,
and Rachel, I suspect too.

It's interesting because people
are older, if they're older than

40, older than 50, they're
they're almost going to want to

talk on the phone first, right?

Uh, I'd make like a little
space.

Again, if you have boutique
studios listening, you might

have a different funnel, which
might work, right?

It might be you're just driving
them right to the class.

You could even, you could even
try to have them book a strategy

session without talking to
someone.

I think what what I have seen,
and I'm pretty sure Vince and

Rachel backed me up on this, I
think to Vince's point, the

challenge is if we just can't
take a minute to help them get

clear on why this matters and
sort of mine around until we get

them to acknowledge there's like
an emotional reason they reached

out, the show rates are just not
going to be as great.

So, again, it's not a bad game
to play, right?

You can play a, I think, a
higher volume game where not in

a negative way, but maybe it's
like a little bit more like

transactional, and we're just
volume and we're just trying to

get them to take some workouts.

Again, that again, depending on
the the model you have, I think

that can work.

Uh, at this point in my career,
I tend to prefer more of like a

small group, slightly more
premium priced, slightly older,

slightly more high-touch model.

Because yeah, I would just like
double-click on on Vince's point

that unless we get to some
underlying reason about why this

matters to them, you'll find
everything else, right down to

retention, is not going to be as
successful, right?

Because they're not as bought
into how this is going to impact

their life.

SPEAKER_04: So I want to dig
into what you and Vince both

said.

Vince, are you are you
recommending to your clients

that they have these closing
conversations on the phone or on

site at their gym?

Because you said you would have
your if somebody at your

mastermind was a low performer,
you'd have them get the call and

you'd listen to their their
phone game, and their phone game

was pretty weak, is what I
thought I heard you say.

Yeah.

Do most of your of your clients
have these sales calls on the

phone or in person at their gym?

SPEAKER_01: So usually the
setting is done on the phone.

Okay.

That's kind of that 30% that we
were talking about.

Okay, I kind of consider that
almost a set, right?

That they are either through
text message, I prefer on the

phone, and Mark made a good
point of like pick up the phone

and call.

And I really don't think enough
people do that.

But that 30% that we were
talking about earlier, I

consider that a set.

And that's typically done either
through text message or on the

phone.

The 80%, the knee-to-knee
selling that I know Rachel does,

or the one-on-one consultation
to sell them a membership, that

would be in person.

When I was talking about the
guys in the group, we I just

want to be clear, we we created
like a mock thing where they

would go in the other room and
we would listen to the phone

call, and it was it's brutal,
it's absolutely brutal.

But if they can do it in that
environment, they can do it in

any environment, right?

SPEAKER_04: That phone call was
to set the appointment, right?

SPEAKER_01: That yes, exactly.

That the phone call was to set
the appointment.

Yes.

SPEAKER_04: So we have our first
question is what is a great

question to ask and drive the
conversation with the lead?

SPEAKER_01: Oh, I yeah, I'll
I'll give my absolute favorite

question, and I want to give
credit to where creditors do,

the great Dan Sullivan.

I know you guys have followed
him, but it's it's called, and I

think it can be asked in the
set, I think it can be asked in

the consultation.

I actually asked the same
question both times, and the

number one response you'll get
from this question is wow,

that's a really great question.

So here's the question.

If we were having this
conversation one year from

today, and you were looking back
on that year, what has to have

happened with your health and
fitness for you to feel happy

with your progress?

Like, that's the question.

Like, memorize that question.

I learned that question a decade
ago.

I have it baked into my mind, I
have it word for word memorized.

I believe every salesperson
should have it memorized.

Because the most important thing
about a sale is we're trying to

get people to from a current
situation to where they want to

be.

If we don't know where they want
to be, it's really, really hard

to paint the picture for how
they're gonna get there.

Right.

And so that question gets us to
help them describe, and we're

guiding them to help them
describe where they want to be.

And we're not just gonna say in
one month, right?

Because we want this to be a
long-term thing.

We want health and we want to
educate them on this is a

process, this is not this.

Oh, we're gonna help you drop,
you know, 10 pounds.

So that's why I like 12 months.

So that's the my favorite
question to ask in either a set

or close.

SPEAKER_04: Excellent.

Rachel, same question to you.

Something that you recommend a
gym owner say to convert the

lead to show.

SPEAKER_00: So I think I think
we're all on the same page with

taking our time.

One-on-one appointment, we do
spend a full hour with a

potential client.

So when they come in to sit down
with us, really listening to

them, like Vince already said.

Part of that listening to them
is digging deeper.

So asking why.

Ask, you know, they say, I want
to drop 10 pounds.

Don't just let that be the end
of the conversation.

Instead, ask, why do you want to
drop 10 pounds?

I want to, you know, well, I
have a trip planned for Europe

this year with my family.

Okay, now let's talk about that
trip to Europe.

So now we can start to get
really into the deeper

conversation that I really care
about and, you know, really want

to hear what's going to motivate
this person to join the gym,

come to the gym, be consistent.

So asking why, like three times.

So, you know, just keep asking
why.

And why do you want to, you
know, why do you want to feel

that way when you go to Europe
with your family?

Why would that be important?

Well, I don't want to not be
able to experience all the

things with my family that I
could experience, right?

I mean, that's where we get into
these deep conversations where

they're like, you know, they
really feel like, you know what,

this is gonna change my life.

And that's what we're doing,
we're changing their life.

And I think if people walk away
from your sales table, we didn't

show them enough value, right?

We didn't, and so we have to
figure out what's valuable to

them.

Like if we don't know what's
valuable to them, how do we show

them that we can provide that
value, right?

So take your time.

I think that's like my biggest.

I think a lot of us are in a
rush, we're hurt, we don't have

time.

Uh, we want to do a quick phone
call.

I want to do, you know, like
just like take a breath for a

minute, sit down.

Because if you start that client
on the right foot, like Mark was

saying, like we're we're big on,
I would rather have less clients

sign up each month that are
highly qualified, that are

really good fits for our culture
and our community, that are

gonna refer us a ton of people
and that are gonna be with us

for 20 to 25 years, like a lot
of our clients have.

And that's how you build a
long-term sustainable company is

by starting it off with really
taking your time and listening

to that person and then showing
them you understand what's

valuable to them and that that's
what you're gonna help them

with.

SPEAKER_04: Excellent.

Uh Vince, we have two people who
have asked you to repeat the

question that you learned from
Dan Sullivan slowly.

SPEAKER_01: If we were having if
we were having this conversation

one year from today and you were
looking back on that year, what

has to have happened with your
health and fitness for you to

feel happy with your progress?

SPEAKER_04: Excellent, thank
you.

Mark, did you want to go back
and answer the question of what

do you recommend a gym owner
says to the lead in that setting

conversation to get them to show
up?

Do you have anything different
you want to add?

SPEAKER_03: No.

No, yeah, yeah.

No, I think that's that's uh
well covered.

I would yeah.

Yes, yes, Ann, I agree.

Strongly agree.

SPEAKER_04: Yes, Anne.

We're gonna go back to the uh
conversion question for a second

because we have a question from
the audience.

If 60 to 70 percent is the
conversion rate, and Vince was

saying 80 is what he's
expecting.

What is the typical attrition
rate at some facilities that

have limited capacity?

Just curious, how would you
manage all the new clients

without hiring more staff?

Mark?

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, again,
it depends on the the volume

you're doing here, but for
contacts, the gym I have in New

Jersey is you know, two and a
half people.

And yeah, I mean, it's I I think
you might we be so lucky to have

like so many millions of clients
that that's presenting an issue.

I guess maybe you can ask the
question for me one more time,

Julian, just to make sure I'm
answering it.

unknown: Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: There's concerns
about capacity, perhaps.

SPEAKER_04: Essentially, the qu
the question is what's the

attrition rate?

The assumption is if you're
converting a lot of people at a

60 to 70 percent rate, you're
gonna have more people than you

have space for.

SPEAKER_00: But I think you're
already like if you're keeping

people, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah.

Uh yeah, that's a uh I I think
uh I'll be happy.

We'll we'll all be happy to help
you when that becomes a problem.

Yeah, the good news, bad news is
at a certain point, it's going

to be hard to outsell attrition
uh for two reasons.

Number one, you know, again,
even in your massive, larger

model within reason at a certain
point, you just do start to run

out of capacity.

You begin to hit these invisible
bounds during which people are

terminating because they can't
get in.

The other way you can reach
capacity is depending on how

many top funnel leads you can
get and your throughput to new

members, you will not be able to
outsell attrition, right?

Because if you have uh, you
know, 100 clients and you're

retaining it, let's call it 5%,
you need five clients just to

stand still.

If you have, and I know this
isn't typical, but just to you

know, follow us out, if you have
a thousand clients, even at 5%,

you're gonna need 50 clients
just to stand still.

Not only that, there will tend
to be a little bit of law of

gravity all the way down, right?

So what do I mean by that?

Well, if you have 50 clients and
your goal is to grow by five

clients in a month, and let's
say at current, you're

converting at, let's say, a 25%
throughput, right?

Okay, so let's say lead to new
member.

That's I think we've been, you
know, I think Julian, you're 30

and 30 is 9%.

Uh, I agree, it's maybe a little
bit low, though.

Again, in the boutique fitness
space, that you know, that could

happen if you're playing more
volume game.

You know, typically I see 10 to
25% throughput.

You can go on the higher side if
you're very good at marketing,

if your market is
unsophisticated, and if you're

not relying heavily on paid ads.

Uh, if you're not as good, if
you're if you have a massive

paid ad strategy, you're very
good at marketing, you're

driving a lot of cold leads.

And if you're in a sophisticated
market, you're gonna see that

that number is a little bit
lower, right?

There are certain markets in in
America, some of you listening

might be lucky, where right now
it's, you know, you still it

still feels like people are
like, whoa, somebody they called

me right away, right?

I've lived in New York and New
Jersey.

I always say it's like trying to
pet a deer when you're trying to

contact a paid ad.

It's like they're they're
willing to do it, but you know,

they're just getting marketed so
hard all the time.

So to go back to this question,
okay, well, let's just say at 50

clients to add five clients per
month, right now you need 20

leads and you're at 5%
retention, okay, or 5%

attrition.

Well, if you go up to say 150
clients, first of all, it's

gonna be hard to keep the exact
same retention all the way up.

You want to, but invariably
there's gonna be a little bit of

gravity drag.

Not only that, but you are often
gonna be less efficient with the

leads, right?

Because now if you're looking to
add five clients, at a certain

point, or I should say rather,
if you need to keep selling more

and more members to outsell
attrition, not only you might

not need four times as many
leads as you need members.

I just told you, sometimes you
need like eight to ten times as

many leads as you need members,
right?

And again, the the there's these
strange scaling laws in gyms

that are non-intuitive.

I'm sure Vince and Rachel can
empathize with me.

You know, a lot of gym owners,
and I love you so much.

This might be some of you
listening.

You're like, I sell 100%.

All I need is more leads.

I get three leads every month,
and you know, two out of three

of them, almost three, they
almost always sign up.

Just get them in front of me.

Well, that's true, but if if
you're only getting two to three

leads per month, this means this
is an individual that has

navigated a digital gauntlet to
find you in the first place, and

they're coming in, throwing
their credit card at you,

begging to start.

The the rules will start to
change if you have a very

sophisticated marketing
strategy, because at a certain

point, there will be some uh
change of the quality will

denature a little bit as your
quantity scales up.

I think that's to be expected
and is okay.

But I say all that to say that
that's why in practice, you

usually don't have to worry
about running out of capacity.

And again, by the way, there are
people that that do, right?

There are gyms in America that
hit capacity.

And at that point, then you just
start to have this interesting

lifestyle conversation around,
okay, well, what's next?

You know, I've been sniffing the
house for what do you want now,

right?

Do we want more locations?

Do you want to like let this rip
and scale down your hours a

little bit and hang out with
your family?

So in practice, yeah, I
appreciate this question.

And I'm sad to say, usually
that's not like a real issue.

SPEAKER_04: But it is a perfect
segue for the the monthly churn

data that we see here.

And our report indicated that
the majority of profitable

studios and gyms, regardless of
whether they're in the city or

the suburb, the majority of them
are maintaining less than 5%

churn rate.

Rachel, is that what you see at
at the gyms that you coach and

advise?

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.

I think it's hard to keep up
with anything over 5%.

So we try to shoot for under 3%.

So, like Mark was saying, you
know, depending on how big your

gym is and how many, like we
have 240 members, so shooting

for under 3% means we need seven
new clients to keep up, right?

To to keep our 240, right?

So I think depending on where
you're at, right, that this is

going to be harder or easier.

But I think shooting for under
that 5% to to remain profitable

and not feel like, I mean, a lot
of times what we've had is gyms

who have done different programs
where they get an influx of all

these new members because it was
really low priced, you know,

huge promotion that they brought
in all these people, but they're

not keeping people.

And so everybody's just coming
in and then they're leaving,

coming in and then they're
leaving.

And that's so much more work to
constantly have to get new

people in the door than it is
to, you know, work on your

services, work on keeping
people.

So if you are losing more than
5%, I would fix that before I

would worry about you know the
marketing piece of it.

Because, you know, if you work
on just the marketing and the

people are, you know, going out
the door, it's gonna, you're

never gonna be able to catch up.

SPEAKER_04: Vince, you want to
add anything to the churn

conversation?

SPEAKER_01: I'll I'll just say
that uh I totally agree with

what Rachel and Mark just said.

And the the only guarantee in
business is you won't keep all

your customers.

Like you can make all your your
gym free and you could pay

people to come to your gym, and
you're still gonna have a churn

rate.

So some of this is a lot of this
is out of your hands.

And I think a lot of people beat
their head against the wall of,

oh my God, I lost a client last
month, and you know, they're

taking it very, very
emotionally.

So I think some of this is
managing the expectations of

like you are going to lose
people every month, guaranteed,

like almost guaranteed.

There probably have been months
where you've lost zero people,

but for the most of us, we've
lost, you know, a small number.

So I think it's managing the
expectations, but I agree with

Rachel, like it's really well
over 5%, it gets tough.

Like none of us are as good at
marketing and sales as we need

to be to be able to outpace a
10% attrition rate.

And we don't want to.

We like we don't want to.

Everyone on this call probably
doesn't want to play that game

because one of the
differentiators between our

company, because what are what
we you said in the very

beginning of this call,
privately owned companies,

right?

That mom and there were mom and
pop shops.

All of us here are mom and pop
shops, and we survive on good

culture, on good community.

Like that is what makes our
business different than a lot of

these, you know, you know, turn
and burn type of facilities.

So you have to protect that.

That's one of your most
important assets.

So if your insurance is above
5%, that that is something to

fix immediately.

SPEAKER_04: So, Vince, you just
gave me the opportunity for my

first question off the board
that you guys are not prepared

for, but I know Mark is prepared
for this.

You just talked about your
audience, your clients, the

people listening are owners of
mom and pop businesses.

They started because they loved
movement and working with people

and training people.

You can go to Perform Better
seminars and listen to the Mike

Boyles of the world talk about
the mechanics of your craft, or

you could go listen to the three
of you talk about the business

of running a business.

How does the individual gym
owner manage both?

Becoming proficient expert in
delivering your personal

training services and becoming
proficient at the business of

running a gym in 24 hours.

How do you guys manage that?

What do you recommend for the
gym owner struggling to be

proficient in both?

SPEAKER_00: I would recommend
becoming a really good coach

first before you open your
business.

I think it is very hard to
become very become the best at

both at the same time.

I think if you if you are not a
great coach, if you you know

don't have those sket that skill
set yet, it's probably not a

good idea to jump and open your
own gym right away.

Find a place that you you know
that you can work, that you can

you know hone that skill.

You can learn all the things
about being a good coach.

If that's what you're passionate
about.

If you want to be, you know, if
if you want to coach and that

wants you want that to be a part
of your like like us, we're

coaches, Alan, you know, we're
still on the floor coaching.

We love it.

It's why we own a gym.

And so I we wouldn't give that
up.

You know, I'm still running the
drop two sizes meetings, like I

it's because I want to, because
I love it.

So if that's who you are, if
that's you know, you want to

coach where, you know, I know
you know other people want to be

the business owner.

And if you want to be the
business owner, find yourself a

good coach to be your partner so
that they can be the one that's

you know that's honing that
skill while you're honing your

business owner skills.

I think it would be hard to try
to do both at the same time.

SPEAKER_04: There's a key word
you just said there, find a

partner.

Mark?

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: You want to weigh in
on this?

I this topic generally.

I know you well enough to know
you have an answer to this

question.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, well,
I I don't actually know that

mine's much different than
Rachel's, I don't say.

I think it's hard to do both of
them.

I have kind of this theory of my
my observation of the displaced

nutrients, which I must qualify
as potentially me getting in my

rock and chair and the old gym
owners, old folks home here and

be like, you kids gotta go read
starting strength again, right?

There are a lot of people now
rushing to the business stuff,

which I get, and all three of us
are you know arguably voices for

that.

And we want people to have
business processes that are well

run.

But at the end of the day, the
the product really is the thing

that matters.

And Rachel's point, it it kind
of is.

I mean, it's hard enough to just
learn all the business things

you need, right?

Like even just like marketing,
sales, finance, like that alone

is there's a bunch of different
subbuckets of running a

business.

So yeah, ideally, this is
something you've really

developed some competence or
some mastery in up front.

Certainly, you know, that's what
a lot of in theory franchise

brands do, is it's not
impossible to outsource it.

I guess you could work with
someone at some point, but you

there's probably gonna have a
bigger conversation on the pros

and cons of partners.

Because when I think about that,
and I think this tracks to the

retention conversation, right?

People are looking for three
things, right?

We want results, we want an
experience, and we want positive

relationships.

And depending on that consumer
and depending on that model,

people are gonna put different
priorities on each of them.

But, you know, it's really
funny.

I was like talking to uh a buddy
of mine, I think some of you

guys know my buddy Joe Megwell,
and we're having a conversation,

we're talking about retention
stuff, and like we're like, oh,

these retention things and these
this stuff.

And by the way, we can talk
about some of that too.

There's a lot of cool things now
in 2025 that you can and you

probably should do to run the
business.

And, you know, he didn't say
quite this flippantly, but it's

a funnier story when I tell it
this way.

But he was like, it's all
stupid.

It just is the session good?

Is the product good?

Like, do people love the
product?

Are they excited to be there?

Do they like the time of the
coach?

Because yeah, you do have to
have competence at, I think, the

program design, the technical
coaching.

But then that also has to be
married with the business

process of how do I do it in a
way that is operationally

efficient, that is consistent.

And that's usually through some
combination of creating

standards, having audits and a
lot of other stuff we can we can

pull up there.

But yeah, I mean, yeah, so I
think, yeah, I think Rachel,

Rachel nailed that ideally do
the training stuff first and

then open the gym because
there's only so many hours in

the day and that gets hard
afterwards.

Failing that, you know, maybe,
maybe you want to take a

quarterly focus at a time.

That's sort of my own approach
to education.

I'm not saying that's correct,
but I tend to have a focus on

stuff on a quarterly basis.

And I will also give a shout out
to our our pal Mike Boyle and

Kevin Carrant, Brendan Ririx.

Certified functional strength
coach is a great company to look

into if you're looking for
support in that.

SPEAKER_00: We've we've actually
had two, so multiple coaches

work for us, get to a point
where in our business, they're

at the top, doing everything
they can as a coach.

They're kicking butt.

And then they've joined Results
University and opened their own

gym, and we've been able to
coach them on their business and

help them open their business.

And that's been, I think, the
best path is you know, become

the great coach.

And then, you know, now we can
go ahead and open the business.

And one of the hardest shifts
for trainers to do, though, is

shifting from trainer to
business owner.

And the the gyms that we work
with that we have the hardest,

I'm sure you guys are the same,
the hardest time getting their

business where we need it is the
people who want to coach 60

hours a week and can't pull
themselves off that coaching

floor.

You have to be ready when you
open a business to give up some

of the.

I mean, you can 20 hours a week
is max.

That's what we say.

Like 20 hours a week coaching is
max.

So we've got to get that
schedule down because there's no

way.

You're going to run your
business if you're planning to

coach 40 to 60 hours a week.

It's just not going to happen.

SPEAKER_04: So I'll give you an
exception to that, which goes

back to your your previous
comment about having a partner.

Mark and I have a good friend in
this in New York City who

coaches 50 hours a week and he
loves it.

And he's charges one of the
highest rates in the city, but

he has two business partners and
his wife is the office manager.

Right.

So he put himself in a place
where he's just coaching and

there's a system around him
doing all the other stuff.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah.

I often yeah.

And that's a very robust version
that is, you know, unique to I

think a very talented operator.

I sometimes refer to that for
people listening.

You can maybe locate yourself
for this.

I sometimes refer to that as the
independent trainer plus model.

Because uh, you know, Vince,
Rachel, I'm sure you've

sometimes had conversations with
like like wonderful people that

we're happy to help.

And they're like, oh, I have
this gym.

And you're like, tell me about
your gym.

It's like I trained three
clients in 75 square foot in my

garage.

And by the way, if you're if
that's you listening, like

that's amazing.

That's a great place to start.

That is just the mechanics of
that is a little bit different,

right?

And and by the way, your next
step might be now I'm gonna rent

200 square feet and I'm gonna
have a super part-time VA admin

help.

And then some of you might go on
to the types of businesses that

the the three of us help people
run.

Some of you, it might be the
better move to be like, you

know, just yeah, scale up to 50
hours per week, charge$300 per

hour, have everyone else do
everything for you.

And, you know, that can be a
great way to go based on your

interest there.

I think the only thing that, you
know, I would add to that is,

you know, we've we've been
around a minute here, you know,

I'm not as young as I used to
be.

My experience is it's a very
special kind of person that's

happy to do that into their late
40s and into their 50s.

So, you know, oftentimes you
have the coach that loves that

when they're like 33 and they're
like, this is amazing.

I'm making 150k per year, I wear
sweatpants, let's go.

You know, and then you're like
42 and you got a mortgage and

got three kids.

Uh, and and not always, again, I
really want to see you,

independent trainer, if you're
listening.

I think that's another great way
to go.

I just want to support you in
being intentional.

And just I just want to
acknowledge that my in my

observations, sometimes what we
prioritize changes.

SPEAKER_04: All right, guys.

We have about 10 minutes left
and several questions in the QA.

So let's go rapid fire answers.

One person per question.

SPEAKER_00: Which we're really
good at.

SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.

17 minutes only.

What's the best way to figure
out your gym's max capacity?

Is there a standard formula to
determine your gym's max

capacity?

Mark, since you mentioned this
twice today.

Your recommendation.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, the
the way you can back it out is

there's a few different ways to
do it, okay?

But what you could do is you
could say, okay, if you have one

pod, you're gonna have, let's
call it 50 to 60 primetime hours

per week, right?

50, 55, 60 somewhere in there.

The reason being you usually
can't do, yeah, it depends on

the market, but we're not gonna
assume that we can really max

out a session like at 2 p.m.

on a Tuesday.

So if you assume, for sake of
argument, you're open six days

per week, that often is gonna
be, let's call it 50 to 55

hours.

So from there, you just kind of
do the math based on your coach

to client ratio.

So again, in the six-on-one
world, which the three of us

know pretty well, typically
you're at like 120, 130, maybe

150.

And of course, it's gonna depend
a little bit on the average

frequency per client per month,
but you can at least do the math

to understand based on how many
sessions you can reasonably

offer, based on how many clients
can fit in a session.

You can back that out to
understand a hypothetical total

visit max.

You can then further back that
out based on frequency.

Yeah, I'd be curious to hear if
Vince and Rachel have math

around this because you know,
you could just kind of do it

one-to-one-ish and assume
there's gonna be breakage of

underutilization, which will
allow for flexibility.

You could, I think if you get
bigger, you might have to say,

okay, I'm on the hook, so to
speak, for I'm just gonna keep

the math simple.

I'm on the hook for 500 sessions
per week.

So maybe I need to offer 550.

So there's a little bit of a
wiggle room.

And then I divide that by how
many hours I have and how many

people I can fit in the session.

But I I think that's how I would
think about that.

Although again, there's there's
sort of a hypothetical invisible

ceiling you'll get to if you
really do reach true capacity.

That will just show up in
increased churn because people

just can't get in.

SPEAKER_04: So let me define
what rapid response means for

sorry, sorry.

That would not be it.

So mark at unicorns.com.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I tried.

I tried everybody, sorry.

SPEAKER_04: If you have a
question about being max

capacity, Mark at
businessforunicorns.com.

Rachel or are there training
resources that you would you can

recommend to train your staff on
delving deeper into the why of

the client or the training
resources?

I will go first with a
non-training resource, start

with why.

Simon Senec.

I mean, everyone here listening,
if you haven't listened, if you

haven't read that, start with a
YouTube version of that and then

the book.

That is a non-training resource.

Rachel, do you have a training
specific resource?

SPEAKER_00: So we actually, you
know, in our sales process, we

have it laid out pretty good.

So if you want to check out
Results Fitness University, we

have our on-demand success club
where we have courses on you

know how to lay out those
questions.

There are a number of coaching
books, I think, or coaching and

I can't even, I'm trying to
think of some of the ones where

they do go over some of those.

But I think if you've done like
precision nutrition, I know he

covers that quite a bit in his
precision nutrition

certification.

So, you know, looking into some
of the other certifications, you

might find that.

But yeah, I think it's something
that you want to learn how to

coach.

You want to learn how to, you
know, it's a part of coaching, I

think, is learning how to ask
questions and keep asking the

right questions.

SPEAKER_04: Excellent.

Vince got a really tough
question here specifically for

you.

What is on the front and the
back of your black metal VIP

card?

SPEAKER_01: Uh I think I have
one or do you have one to show?

I know.

I usually have one around here,
but I believe it's the front of

it says, and I actually, while
we're plugging, I have a new

book coming out, and I put a
screenshot of the card in the

book.

The book's coming out soon
called The Eight Profit Levers.

But I believe it's just free.

SPEAKER_04: Say it slowly.

What's the name of the book?

SPEAKER_01: The Eight Profit
Levers.

SPEAKER_04: And where can they
find it?

SPEAKER_01: No, it's not I it,
you know, they'll know.

But the uh I believe it says
free 30-day jump start.

Free 30-day fitness jump start.

That's what it says on the
front.

And then uh, this is very
important.

It also says$500 value on the
bottom.

That's a really important piece.

So you're kind of putting a
value on the card.

And then the back is how they
what to do, which I believe

sends them to a landing page.

SPEAKER_04: Got it.

Last three questions, one each.

Vince, since you're up, let's go
with the last question for you.

Vince, I know you are great at
helping gym owners scale

responsibly to multiple gyms.

We just opened our fourth gym,
and I'm struggling to know how I

should measure success in our
biggest initial location.

Revenues in the initial location
are down 30%, but the other

locations are doing well.

How should I think about this?

SPEAKER_01: Someone has to be in
charge.

It usually the case is no one
has taken ownership.

And I and I've gone through this
with many of my guys because I

have a lot of guys that opened
up big, they opened up a big gym

and then they opened up a lot of
little gyms.

And the guys that were the big
gym, the main mothership, has

gone down.

Is they took themselves out of
the gym and they're running all

these many gyms and they're
leading all these other people,

and they didn't put someone in
charge of the main gym.

So they have to get clarity on
the role and who owns the

results, who owns the PL of that
one location.

And just like all the other
locations, third, fourth, fifth,

sixth, the driver of this, kind
of like what Mark said about it,

it's all based on the person,
all based on the person that is

in charge.

So if they want that mothership
to get back on track, you need

to put someone in charge that
owns the sales, that owns the

community, that owns the
retention, and they have to

protect that.

That's called I call it the
center of the accountability

chart, the sales and the
retention.

The rest of the finance and the
and the marketing can be driven

by what we call corporate or
like how they're fueling all the

other locations and stuff like
that.

But what's going to protect the
business is someone owning the

middle of the the org chart,
which is the sales and and and

the product delivery.

And they got to protect that at
all costs.

SPEAKER_04: Fantastic.

Last two questions.

If your goal is to have premium
pricing, meaning$250 or more per

month, can your trial offer be
too low?

Should you keep the trial offer
as high as possible if you're

trying to attract premium
pricing?

Rachel, I think that's for you.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think I
already mentioned this that you

do want to be careful that you
don't go too low with your

trial.

I would, you know, definitely do
a price point with your trial

that is closer to your
membership.

I think if you go too low, you
will get people that can't

afford your membership.

So with a 250 amount, I'd
probably stick with like a 197

or 150 even.

SPEAKER_04: Okay, excellent.

I haven't heard anything about
utilizing social media channels,

not paid, to bring in more
referrals, leads, appointments,

etc.

Do any of you have a strategy
for leveraging organic social

media to drive top of funnel?

All three of you are nodding.

So how about this is the other
question?

So we're all like each of you
give one tactic that you use,

one tactic of how you use
organic social media.

We'll go Vince, Rachel.

SPEAKER_01: I'll go, yeah.

So I I I think that these days,
with all of how AI has made

everything so easy and content
so accessible, I think the the

personal success story is what
is going to win on social.

It's also if you look at
Cialdini's work from Persuasion,

it's like the number one most
persuasive thing is social

proof.

And so you kind of have that.

So I would say clients getting
really, really, really good at

collecting success stories, at
collecting that, and then

getting a consistent pulse of
heaping on social proof so that

all of a sudden someone can see,
wow, like that place down the

street, like they get results
with their people.

People are having success over
there.

And so I think like finding a
lot of different ways to collect

social proof.

I'll give you two.

Give us one one being screenshot
testimonials where basically you

ask your client to send you back
a text message, and then you

screenshot it, and then you can
post it.

So it's much more believable
because it's a real screenshot.

And the second one being case
study interviews, where you take

a customer, you have them on
Zoom, and you interview them,

and then you can transcribe the
interview, take the video, and

now you have all this different
content that you can use and

take that customer showcase and
put it all these different

places.

Excellent.

Rachel.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, on that note,
so set up a camera in your gym

once a month and stand there and
grab clients and say, Hey, I'm

gonna interview you real quick.

They don't have to be long.

Just, you know, pull them in and
give them a quick interview.

So I do that once a month, and
then that way you have tons of

content.

One more thing.

My favorite is we do challenges
where we get our clients to

post.

So put it on your clients.

So we have our mom's gone strong
challenge.

Post your PR and you get a
t-shirt.

So then they're all posting
videos of their PRs in the gym.

We grab those videos, we have
all kinds of people posting,

tagging us, collaborating with
us, 100 workout challenge, end

of the year, 100 workout
challenge.

They basically have to post
every time they work out.

Again, grab those, screenshot
those, repost those, collaborate

with your clients.

Get your clients to do a lot of
the work.

They're the ones who are in
front of the audience that you

want to get in front of.

So put them to work.

SPEAKER_04: And by camera, let's
clarify.

You mean iPhone with the tripod?

SPEAKER_00: A good we we now
have a professional photographer

or videographer come in, but I
that works great.

Just don't make any excuses.

Just set your phone up and get
started.

SPEAKER_04: Mark, bring us home.

SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah.

Um I would say an important
thing about Instagram is the

profile is an alternative
website, first of all.

So when people go to the
website, it has to be clear who

you help, the kind of outcomes
you create, and what you want

them to do next.

Ideally, this is essentially
mirroring what's on the website

itself.

And then finally, and related to
that, once people are following

you, starting a conversation is
a smart idea for local small

business, right?

It's often called sell by chat.

I personally prefer the term
nurture by chat, but you know,

starting a conversation with an
easy this or that yes or no

style of question to get people
to engage.

Because presumably, if it's
somebody following your locally

branded, locally owned small
business gym, they might have

some interest in maybe doing
something.

So those are two things I would
suggest.

There's, I think, a lot more
about what you do after that,

but then you try to have a
conversation and try to get them

on the phone at some point is
the brief version.

SPEAKER_04: So, Mark, your name,
your company name, your email,

and you go.

SPEAKER_03: Yes, my name is Mark
Fisher, Business Funicorns,

Business Funicorns.com, Mark at
Businessunicorns.com.

SPEAKER_04: See how simple that
is.

SPEAKER_01: Vince Gabriel
Smallgroup Personal Training.com

is where you can get a copy of
my free book.

SPEAKER_04: Email or Instagram
handle?

SPEAKER_01: Email is Vince at
GabrielFitness.com, Instagram.

They changed it, I don't
remember it.

Rachel.

SPEAKER_00: Uh Rachel Cosgrove,
Results Fitness University,

ResultsFitnessUniversity.com.

And I am very active on
Instagram, so rachelcosgrove.co.

And my email is rachel at
results dash fitness.com.

SPEAKER_04: And my name is
Julian Barnes, the BFS network,

bfsnetwork.com.

The strength report can be found
at BFSStrengthreport.com, Julian

at BFSnetwork.com.

My thanks to our panelists,
Mark, Rachel, and Vince, and our

special thanks to Chris from
Perform Better for organizing

the webinar today and inviting
us to participate.

Good luck, everyone.

Happy sprint to the end of the
year, and happy January to the

beginning of next year.

Thanks, everyone.

SPEAKER_00: Thank you.